bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

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Grizzly
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bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-25 05:02:15

This has puzzled me when the SNES/SF mini came out. I understand the Canoe emulator is very good for what it does for the 21 games the system has, but why could it not be like what bsnes is in the terms of being accurate. I think its strange with the big N having all the needed info for the SNES, information I am sure byuu one day dreams on getting, could it not be a higher quietly. Did they not want the games to be almost like the real hardware was back in the day. I understand that it was not meant to be hacked at all, and I am not talking about that part, Its just weird why out of the box that Canoe had holes in it.
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Screwtape
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Re: bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-25 05:57:16

The biggest reason that Canoe is not as accurate as bsnes is that Nintendo wanted an emulator that would run on a really cheap, really low-powered ARM CPU. They cut as many corners as they could, without breaking the 21 games they planned to ship, so that they could make the SNES Mini as cheap as possible, sell as many as possible, and make as much money as possible.

If Nintendo *wanted* to make a super-accurate emulator that played every game, they surely could (heck, I'm sure byuu would happily let them use higan and/or bsnes for a few million bucks), but that wasn't their goal.

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Re: bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-26 06:18:44

Screwtape wrote:
2019-10-25 05:57:16
The biggest reason that Canoe is not as accurate as bsnes is that Nintendo wanted an emulator that would run on a really cheap, really low-powered ARM CPU. They cut as many corners as they could, without breaking the 21 games they planned to ship, so that they could make the SNES Mini as cheap as possible, sell as many as possible, and make as much money as possible.

If Nintendo *wanted* to make a super-accurate emulator that played every game, they surely could (heck, I'm sure byuu would happily let them use higan and/or bsnes for a few million bucks), but that wasn't their goal.
Quick cash grab, Man that's very low on Nintendo's part. They could of put in the ARM CPU that the Raspberry Pi 3b,3b+ has. I mean that CPU surely would not of cost that much to put into the snes mini. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read some forum postings about the emulator that even the 21 games that came with it are not the best emulated. Is that correct. I ask because I do not have a snes mini at all, So I do not know first hand if its true.

Was the strange rom format the mini used to prevent piracy or was that just another corners they cut to make as much money as they could?
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Screwtape
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Re: bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-26 09:24:51

From a game preservation perspective, it's a bit disappointing that Nintendo isn't putting their full weight behind preservation efforts. On the other hand, maybe they feel they've already put enough effort into game preservation (backing up their private game archives and system documentation, etc.) and they don't feel the need to do anything publicly.

Sure, they could have shelled out a few more dollars for a more powerful CPU, but according to Nintendo's annual financial report for the financial year ending in 2019, the NES Mini and SNES Mini combined sold nearly six million units. Even a few dollars times six million units winds up being significant money.

I haven't paid attention to what emulation flaws might be in the SNES Mini, but as far as I know the "strange ROM format" is the same one used on the Wii Virtual Console. Because high-quality audio takes up a lot of room, and the ROM chips used in original SNES games were very expensive (at the time), SNES games stored sounds in a custom compression format, which the SNES hardware knew how to decompress. These days, however, it's the opposite way around: storage is cheap, and custom audio hardware (or emulating audio hardware in software) is expensive. So, the "strange ROM format" is just an ordinary SNES ROM, plus pre-decompressed copies of all the sound-effects for the emulator to use. I don't know if you'd count it as corner-cutting (the game sounds exactly the same), but it does make the emulator simpler, and therefore faster, and therefore able to run on cheaper hardware.

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Re: bsnes vs Canoe, bsnes is better

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-27 05:57:13

Screwtape wrote:
2019-10-26 09:24:51
From a game preservation perspective, it's a bit disappointing that Nintendo isn't putting their full weight behind preservation efforts. On the other hand, maybe they feel they've already put enough effort into game preservation (backing up their private game archives and system documentation, etc.) and they don't feel the need to do anything publicly.

Sure, they could have shelled out a few more dollars for a more powerful CPU, but according to Nintendo's annual financial report for the financial year ending in 2019, the NES Mini and SNES Mini combined sold nearly six million units. Even a few dollars times six million units winds up being significant money.

I haven't paid attention to what emulation flaws might be in the SNES Mini, but as far as I know the "strange ROM format" is the same one used on the Wii Virtual Console. Because high-quality audio takes up a lot of room, and the ROM chips used in original SNES games were very expensive (at the time), SNES games stored sounds in a custom compression format, which the SNES hardware knew how to decompress. These days, however, it's the opposite way around: storage is cheap, and custom audio hardware (or emulating audio hardware in software) is expensive. So, the "strange ROM format" is just an ordinary SNES ROM, plus pre-decompressed copies of all the sound-effects for the emulator to use. I don't know if you'd count it as corner-cutting (the game sounds exactly the same), but it does make the emulator simpler, and therefore faster, and therefore able to run on cheaper hardware.
I agree with you on the game preservation, but why does Nintendo keep the snes system documentation in its safe? I feel that it should be made available to the public to read and study how it all worked. It's been out now for over 20 years, I do not think any competitor would make mega money off of it. I understand the third parties have made clone systems off of the FPGA coding, but I don't think even that would hurt Nintendo's bottom line. I understand the private games part, they may reuse them into a new game of some sort, bur the snes docs, I don't see the harm into letting the public viewing. Maybe its just me.

Thank you for the pdf from Nintendo, I kinda did a little rough math off of what they sold and the combine MSRP of both the nes and snes American version. Feel free to double check my numbers because like I said its some rough math. The ARM processor that the raspberry pi 3b has which is the 64-bit 4 core Cortex A-53 CPU, Is $5.00 dollars https://www.androidauthority.com/allwin ... ts-579202/, that was the only price that I could find, not 100% sure if that is the true price. I then took the $5.00 times it by 6 Million and got 30,000,000. I then round up the price of both the snes and nes mini in north america and got 140 for it. Finally I took the 30,000,000 divided by 140 and got a final total of what it could been with the better CPU and got $214,285.71. Now with that number I subtracted 30 mill by 214,285.71 and got $29,785,714.29. So while the cost of having the better ARM CPU at $214,285.71 combined, Nintendo would still have a very great profit of $29,785,714.29. But 30mill is still better the 29mill, So I see that there cutting corners did pay off, but not by a large margin though. Like you said though its a significant amount of money.

I see, I did not know that. No I would not call that cutting corners at all, in fact its a smart move, but the choice Nintendo did make of not putting their full weight behind into making almost a 100% copy in the emulation software of there SNES is just very sad. I mean byuu bsnes is almost a 100% emulated SNES, but he did it all threw pure joy from the system and it was all done using open source code. Nintendo has all of the needed codes and docs,but yet they picked being lazy. Just makes you wounder.
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