Mode 7 like for higan?

Post Reply
User avatar
Grizzly
Posts: 14
Joined: 2019-10-20 05:41:02
Location: In Da Woods

Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-24 01:08:05

Hello, Could Mode 7 that the bsnes has be able to run in higan? Or something on that order be intermingled into it? The reason I ask is because I think it would be cool to have it for NES games. I think it would really help out a lot of different titles and smooth some of the rough edges out. I am not saying something like mode 7 has to be in it right know, oh no, I am just wondering if it could even be made.


Thank you for talking the time to read my post. :-)
Image

Screwtape
Posts: 10
Joined: 2019-09-18 21:49:25

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-24 09:25:16

byuu has two separate projects, higan and bsnes, because he's pursuing two different goals. On one hand, he wants to preserve the behaviour of the SNES (and other consoles) as clearly and accurately as he can for posterity, so higan is focussed on clean, simple code that does exactly what real hardware does, no more and no less. On the other hand, he wants accurate emulation to be widely available and popular, so that accurate emulators are likely to be preserved, and so that homebrew authors aren't tempted to write games for buggy emulators like ZSNES — so bsnes takes higan's clean, simple core and adds a bunch of fancy features, like HD Mode 7 and filters and compressed file support.

So, for that reason bsnes' fancy mode 7 features aren't going to be ported to higan - they suit the purpose of bsnes, but not the purpose of higan.

Also, "Mode 7" is a specific feature of the SNES graphics chip. It doesn't make sense to talk about adding Mode 7 support to higan's NES emulation — the NES hardware couldn't do anything like it, and no games would be able to make use of it.

User avatar
Grizzly
Posts: 14
Joined: 2019-10-20 05:41:02
Location: In Da Woods

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-25 04:42:33

I understand, I was just wondering if something like mode 7 could be added on, Like as a add on. I know the true Mode 7 was only an SNES thing, I really like it on bsnes. I mean it really makes the games look really great.

On the NES, I would like to make a small respectable rebuttal on it would not make a difference for the game. While its true that NES og hardware could not do what SNES could do, games are not as well build like SNES games and would not have the same POP in visuals so to speak, having a add on to make things a tad bit nicer would at least I see it be a good thing. Say like Mario 1-3, Kirby, Mega Man,Donkey Kong etc. I think they really would look nicer then before with something like what mode 7 for snes does for games. Now will that make every NES game look great, no it will not, but the same thing can be said on the snes, not every snes game looks great in the visuals also. Yes while the hardware could not do that, software could filled in as an what if thing.

It's not that I am demanding it to be added asap, I just thought hey, if mode 7 helps to preserve snes emulation in the long run, could a spin off like that in a way help out the rest of the emulation in general. I picked the NES out because while a lot of the games have rough edges around them, With a small bit of polish they to can look great. :-)
Image

Screwtape
Posts: 10
Joined: 2019-09-18 21:49:25

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-25 09:43:57

Grizzly wrote:
2019-10-25 04:42:33
Say like Mario 1-3, Kirby, Mega Man,Donkey Kong etc. I think they really would look nicer then before with something like what mode 7 for snes does for games.
I mean, there's SNES ports of Super Mario Bros. 1-3 in Super Mario All-Stars, they do look great, but they don't use Mode 7. I think the SNES Kirby games do use Mode 7, but only for a cutscene where Kirby is riding on a star, not for ordinary game-play. I'm not familiar with the Mega Man X games; maybe they use Mode 7 for bosses, but I don't think they use Mode 7 in ordinary game-play either. Donkey Kong Country probably uses Mode 7 for a couple of bosses too, but again it's not used in normal game-play.

So if those games generally don't use Mode 7 on the SNES where it's available, how could a Mode-7-like effect improve the NES versions? Perhaps you could remove the games' original boss-fights and insert new ones that used Mode 7 effects, but that would be a lot of work for very little benefit.

User avatar
Grizzly
Posts: 14
Joined: 2019-10-20 05:41:02
Location: In Da Woods

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-26 06:03:27

Screwtape wrote:
2019-10-25 09:43:57
Grizzly wrote:
2019-10-25 04:42:33
Say like Mario 1-3, Kirby, Mega Man,Donkey Kong etc. I think they really would look nicer then before with something like what mode 7 for snes does for games.
I mean, there's SNES ports of Super Mario Bros. 1-3 in Super Mario All-Stars, they do look great, but they don't use Mode 7. I think the SNES Kirby games do use Mode 7, but only for a cutscene where Kirby is riding on a star, not for ordinary game-play. I'm not familiar with the Mega Man X games; maybe they use Mode 7 for bosses, but I don't think they use Mode 7 in ordinary game-play either. Donkey Kong Country probably uses Mode 7 for a couple of bosses too, but again it's not used in normal game-play.

So if those games generally don't use Mode 7 on the SNES where it's available, how could a Mode-7-like effect improve the NES versions? Perhaps you could remove the games' original boss-fights and insert new ones that used Mode 7 effects, but that would be a lot of work for very little benefit.

Now that you put it that way, I do understand your point. I guess that is where emulation filters like CRT,Egale Eye etc come into play. It fills in the gaps already. Man I feel like a fool. But I learned a lot of things so far about emulation.

For the games, Yes for kirby its only a cutscene mode 7 is used in, they should of had it for the whole game, Donkey Kong Country, your right on that and also I think Mega Man X falls into that as well. Honestly nintendo should of at least gave Mario 1-3 Mode 7 for the whole game as well for Kirby. Donkey Kong Country I really want to say for the whole game as well, but knowing about how that game series were made, I do think it would of pushed the snes way to much. I could be wrong though. And for Mega Man, I think Capcom could of done it for the whole game as well, it would of made the colors in it cooler.

I wounder though, why didn't Mario All Stars have Mode 7 by default? It would of helped smooth things out, there are some hard pixels in some of the backgrounds that could of been smoothed out a little better.
Image

Screwtape
Posts: 10
Joined: 2019-09-18 21:49:25

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-27 08:07:53

Grizzly wrote:
2019-10-26 06:03:27
Honestly nintendo should of at least gave Mario 1-3 Mode 7 for the whole game as well for Kirby. Donkey Kong Country I really want to say for the whole game as well, but knowing about how that game series were made, I do think it would of pushed the snes way to much. I could be wrong though. And for Mega Man, I think Capcom could of done it for the whole game as well, it would of made the colors in it cooler.

I wounder though, why didn't Mario All Stars have Mode 7 by default? It would of helped smooth things out, there are some hard pixels in some of the backgrounds that could of been smoothed out a little better.
I think there's a miscommunication going on. Like I said, Mode 7 is about scaling and rotating backgrounds, it doesn't affect colours or make anything smoother. If anything, it makes things more lumpy and pixellated - look at some Super Mario Kart screenshots and all the jumpy, glitchy-looking pixels, especially the zoomed-out map view at the bottom of the screen.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other effect and gotten confused about the name?

User avatar
Grizzly
Posts: 14
Joined: 2019-10-20 05:41:02
Location: In Da Woods

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-28 00:07:06

Screwtape wrote:
2019-10-27 08:07:53
Grizzly wrote:
2019-10-26 06:03:27
Honestly nintendo should of at least gave Mario 1-3 Mode 7 for the whole game as well for Kirby. Donkey Kong Country I really want to say for the whole game as well, but knowing about how that game series were made, I do think it would of pushed the snes way to much. I could be wrong though. And for Mega Man, I think Capcom could of done it for the whole game as well, it would of made the colors in it cooler.

I wounder though, why didn't Mario All Stars have Mode 7 by default? It would of helped smooth things out, there are some hard pixels in some of the backgrounds that could of been smoothed out a little better.
I think there's a miscommunication going on. Like I said, Mode 7 is about scaling and rotating backgrounds, it doesn't affect colours or make anything smoother. If anything, it makes things more lumpy and pixellated - look at some Super Mario Kart screenshots and all the jumpy, glitchy-looking pixels, especially the zoomed-out map view at the bottom of the screen.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other effect and gotten confused about the name?
Yes, you are right. While I was typing on the other side of my screen I had a youtube video playing showing off mode 7 on bsnes. And from what I saw on the video, It made the game look great, So I assumed from what I saw in the video is what mode 7 does. Makes everything looks sharper. I am sorry for my mistake on that.
Image

Screwtape
Posts: 10
Joined: 2019-09-18 21:49:25

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Screwtape » 2019-10-28 03:10:08

Ah, yes, I see where you're coming from. It's not "mode 7" that makes games look better in bsnes, it's bsnes that makes mode 7 look better in games. That is, those games already used Mode 7, even on a real SNES, but bsnes can display Mode 7 graphics better than a real SNES can. Those enhancements can't apply to non-Mode-7 graphics, though, which is why I was confused about the idea of applying them to NES games, or games like Super Mario All-Stars.

User avatar
Grizzly
Posts: 14
Joined: 2019-10-20 05:41:02
Location: In Da Woods

Re: Mode 7 like for higan?

Post by Grizzly » 2019-10-28 06:21:09

Screwtape wrote:
2019-10-28 03:10:08
Ah, yes, I see where you're coming from. It's not "mode 7" that makes games look better in bsnes, it's bsnes that makes mode 7 look better in games. That is, those games already used Mode 7, even on a real SNES, but bsnes can display Mode 7 graphics better than a real SNES can. Those enhancements can't apply to non-Mode-7 graphics, though, which is why I was confused about the idea of applying them to NES games, or games like Super Mario All-Stars.
Yes, That again was my mistake, I should of been more clear on the topic, I am sorry about that. I saw what the video did in the terms of bsnes and I thought to myself, if something like that could be added to higan, like a plug-in that could automatically or by user choice could smooth out games, I think it would really help in not just game preservation, but also add to the excitement of what emulators could do. I guess one could say where hardware fails, software can prevail. Again I could just be chasing a wild dream.

Again Sorry for any misunderstanding I may of caused you.
Image

Post Reply